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Imagine if you had to buy this in the 80s.
Shouldn't we citizens be grateful for China?
(3 votes)
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In China, production costs are extremely low, which comes at the expense of the workers. Conditions there are often miserable. Here, working conditions are better, but production costs are also higher. Both factors affect the price of the products, although quality plays no role.
Another factor is that China doesn't give a damn about environmental protection (pun intended). Chemicals and additives are used that are sometimes banned here. Wastewater and waste are not disposed of in an environmentally friendly manner.
The "greed is good" mentality, or in the case of companies, the desire to maximize profits, causes them to repeatedly fall into this trap. They relocate their production abroad. This results in the above-mentioned consequences, but also in the Chinese gradually capturing the know-how of Western companies. In their view, copying someone else is an honor and not a crime – sometimes they even intentionally capture the knowledge.
So, if you take the costs, the relocation, and the transfer of knowledge together, you become extremely dependent on China, and that—as we should have learned—is extremely bad. If you're dependent, China can increase the pressure and thus also the prices, and you're trapped.
Conclusion: Trade with China isn't bad per se. However, in its current form, it's unhealthy and even dangerous.
Ugh, most of it is profit from Germany GmbH. You don't really believe that Tefal makes 10% profit, do you? That's 500%.
cute, someone reported the posts because they can't handle the truth…
so again:
We always assume that China needs us – yes, as long as we can deliver, not materials but know-how, engineering knowledge in all areas.
But even there, we overestimate ourselves. Here, it's only a few who have the knowledge, but the Chinese manage to build a compact body of knowledge through many people with small, specialized pieces of knowledge. Something that doesn't exist, or is very rare, in our society.
Maybe just a thought?
There is some truth in this because the Chinese are not a stupid people, but it is still true that in the past China has massively absorbed knowledge/know-how from the West.
Yes, they managed to exploit and expand this knowledge. Nevertheless, the West remains a strong supplier of innovation, and China is very interested in its technologies.
I don't think that's a bad thing in principle. However, the potential consequences of this have become particularly apparent since the coronavirus pandemic and the Suez Canal. Politics have also changed dramatically. China has risen to become an economic power through this technology transfer and its dependence on the West, and is now slowly tightening the screws and taking a more assertive stance on global politics.
Personally, I wouldn't want to live under a government system like the one in China. But there are certainly some positive aspects to it, because China has clearly succeeded in combating poverty, something that obviously doesn't quite work in our system.
But I'm also skeptical about the Chinese reports…
But that's only one side of the coin. The environmental costs are unacceptable given the current situation. Furthermore, the low production costs aren't reflected in sales, but rather simply satisfy the companies' greed for profit.
According to Spiegel 2017, the average hourly wages of workers in China have tripled from $1.20 to $3.60 since 2006 and will soon approach those in Portugal ($4.50).
This news from about 4 years ago can also confirm the above quote from Spiegel:
Chinese earn almost as much as Greeks
https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000053325549/chinesen-verdienen-schon-fast-so-viel-wie-griechen
As far as I know, China has already reached the level of Portugal/Greece.
Then the following message:
Forget about cheap – wages in China are rising rapidly, and are converging to German standards in numerous sectors:
https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/mittelstand/familienunternehmen/produktionkosten-von-wegen-billig-die-loehne-in-china-stieg-rasant/22905244.html?ticket=ST-23569021-UnSuAvS6AfxkXyeedwEV-ap2
In China, engineer salaries already exceed average salaries in the US Advertising executives now earn even more in the US
Especially in the last 10 years, wages have risen dramatically, in quite a few sectors by over 20% annually.
This led to a booming middle class in China, which now buys every fourth car built worldwide and half of the world's luxury goods:
Chinese buy a quarter of all new cars in the world:
https://www.autohaus.de/nachrichten/autounternehmen/pkw-weltmarkt-chinesen-kaufen-ein-viertel-aller-neuen-autos-2730725
Chinese buy half of the world's luxury goods:
https://www.manager-magazin.de/lifestyle/artikel/luxusgueter-chinesen-machen-weltweit-die-haelfte-des-verkaufes-aus-a-956032.html
So once again:
The significance of trade relations with China is underestimated; it is not just semiconductors or electronic items that are almost 100% manufactured in China.
There's hardly an employer among my acquaintances who doesn't rely on imports from China. The quality of the products is significantly higher than what is possible locally. The Chinese manufacture with machines that allow for compliance with the smallest tolerances, and even these are far exceeded.
Even tools weighing tons for the automotive industry are therefore now manufactured in China, as are many other industrial parts that require strict adherence to tolerances and surface specifications.
For example, a friend of mine recently told me that their Chinese parts have 100% concentricity, and their customers from Italy, Great Britain, or South Korea (all of whom were previously long-time customers of German products) only want parts made in China and have canceled orders for parts produced in Germany because they are now too inaccurate. And that's just one case of many, many… that I know of.
This development worries me greatly, but what is even more worrying is the naivety of German politics, as well as the often visible arrogance of German managers or the population (like you, for example), whose experience or even prejudices are based on a China from 15 or more years ago.
"This has the above consequences, but also means that the Chinese are gradually hijacking the know-how of Western companies. In their view, copying someone else is an honor and not a crime—sometimes they even intentionally steal knowledge."
The Chinese don't need to do anything anymore, according to a new report from Capital.de 3 days ago:
Technologically, China has overtaken:
China is no longer just a country of copycats. It is already a global leader in e-mobility, wind power, and solar energy. Whether you like it or not, the music is now playing in China. German car manufacturers, for example, are already playing catch-up and can no longer afford to be arrogant toward China.
German companies like VW, BMW, and Mercedes, as well as Siemens and BASF, must be active in the Chinese market and increasingly relocate their research and development to China. And that's exactly what they're doing right now. CARIAD, VW's software subsidiary, for example, just invested another €2.4 billion in a strategic cooperation and joint venture with Horizon Robotics, the Chinese market leader in autonomous driving.
We Germans shouldn't just look for things to criticize about China, even if we might be justified. We should also take a look at ourselves more often and be willing to learn from China. There's a great deal there. The pace at which innovations are being dared and new future industries are being created in China, for example, is phenomenal.
“55 percent of all electric vehicles are sold in China, and if Germany’s carmakers want to remain globally competitive, they need access not only to the country’s consumers but also to the technological expertise that has been developed there,” writes the Financial Times in a good analysis of the topic.
Nowhere are more wind turbines being erected and more solar power systems being installed than in China. I often think of a sentence the manager responsible for artificial intelligence at the Chinese internet giant Baidu once said to me in a Beijing café. "You in Europe are already regulating artificial intelligence to death before it even exists," he said. That's true. We in Germany could learn a thing or two from the Chinese's pro-business pragmatism, which even under Xi Jinping hasn't died.
Between kowtowing and war cries – the German China debate knows only extremes – Capital.de
You're certainly right about much of what you said in your post. However, it's important to remember that gaining a foothold in China is only possible if you work with Chinese companies and openly disclose your technologies.
This, of course, opens the door to the Chinese mentality of copying and developing. The hurdles for foreign companies in China are increasing while China takes advantage of the open markets in Europe.
This has been brought about by oneself, among other things by my comments above, and now it is almost impossible to stop it
https://www.manager-magazin.de/unternehmen/artikel/problems-deutscher-unternehmen-in-china-a-1119007.html
Naja, selbstschuldig.
I like to repeat
Yes, it was clever of the Chinese and it will be difficult to get out of this mess.
"This has been brought about by oneself, among other things through my comments above, and now it is almost impossible to stop it."
I can only say:
You're actually absolutely right. Back then, the West actually brought capital—money and know-how—to China, for example, to invest there.
But that was by no means the behavior of the Diakonie.
They invested in China to exploit Chinese people (or rather, forever) as cheap labor for production and at the same time to use China as a huge market for their products to potentially maximize profits.
These people wanted China and the Chinese to suffer forever under this situation, at best.
They probably hadn't thought at all that the Chinese weren't that stupid:
They had "cleverly exploited" money and know-how from the West (or rather: first copied, then improved and finally developed further) and one day continued to serve with them until their own rise.
Well, bad luck, right?
I have been there regularly (privately or professionally) since the mid-90s, and I can only say:
"However, it should not be forgotten that it is only possible to gain a foothold in China if you cooperate with Chinese companies and openly disclose your technologies."
This form of investment in China was actually very large and widely reported in the West.
But people have simply forgotten or rather preferred to remain silent about it:
There are certainly other forms of foreign investment in China: For example , "a sole proprietorship" means that a company in China consists 100% of foreign capital, with no Chinese partner at all.
Here is a guide in English on how to set up such a company in China:
How to Register a Sole Proprietorship in China (deel.com)
Personally, I know a very large number of German companies in China whose investments in China consist of 100% German capital.
China is also the country that has achieved many things with Western technology, two examples:
China has been using magnetic levitation trains as a means of high-speed transportation for almost 20 years. On a new test track in Jinan, in the eastern Chinese province of Shandong, a levitation train has now reached nearly the speed of sound—a record.
During testing, the electromagnetic sled reached a top speed of 1,030 km/h. The current magnetic levitation trains in use in Shanghai reach a top speed of approximately 431 km/h.
Here, a levitating train rushes past at almost the speed of sound – Panorama – FOCUS online
China reports breakthrough in hypersonic jets
China reports breakthrough in hypersonic jets (futurezone.at)
The jeans cost less than 70 marks at the time, which would have been around 35€
In the worst case, the frying pan cost 100 marks (~50€)
I'm already grateful and often shop in China. Mostly books when I'm there 😎
Being stingy is cool. But I don't mean that in a negative way. Yes, it may be that the poor Chinese don't get much out of it. I clearly benefit. I can only spend my money once, too. No one will pat me on the head if my frying pan cost a hundred bucks, but my fridge is empty.
UPS – I clicked the wrong answer… Should be: Disadvantage: YES
Despite all the criticism that can be justified about the production methods of Western industrial nations, for the Chinese, the human production factor is the very last thing that is taken into consideration.
I also find it hard to remember the last time I held quality Chinese goods in my hands. Nothing I've ever purchased from Chinese production has lasted even remotely long.
A cheap price can be dazzling.
There's a saying: "You catch mice with bacon." China's main goal is to dominate the entire world. China is building bases in sensitive locations on all continents in order to slowly but surely dominate the entire market. China not only exports goods and buys industrial shares all over the world, but also maintains its inhumane political system. Therefore, it is important to keep our dependence on China as low as possible. China has not distanced itself from the war against Ukraine started by the Russians. The reason is that China intends to do something similar with Taiwan. China also does not respect patent rights, but copies everything that is not nailed down from all highly developed industrial countries.
There are still enough non-autocratic states with which we can maintain trade relations. Therefore, it's wise to gradually reduce our ties with China. That means buying as few goods from China as possible.
LG from Manfred
"China also does not respect patent rights"
According to Wipo's Global Innovation Index, China (ranked 12th, Germany 10th) has long been one of the innovation leaders:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Innovation_Index
The detailed report can be read online.
Interestingly, China is the only medium-high-wage country among the innovation leaders and, in terms of innovative power, is on the same level as Japan, Ireland, France or Canada, and higher than Australia or Austria, for example.
That China's innovative power is inferior is a long-standing prejudice, one that the Yahoo CEO has already asserted. It's wishful thinking by the West to convince itself that it will maintain its lead.
Racists with such views will rub their eyes.
Unfortunately, innovation in the West is not based on a free spirit either, but largely on greed and the need for recognition.
There are extremely free countries that are, however, significantly less innovative than China, for example Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece, Australia, etc.
Also patent applications, China has now filed more patents than the USA, EU, Japan and South Korea combined:
https://www.dw.com/de/china-st%C3%A4rkt-seine-patent-muscles/a-42858099
Even if the number of patent applications is compared to the number of inhabitants, China ranks fourth in the world with 1001 applications per million inhabitants, ahead of Germany (884):
https://www.cicero.de/aussenpolitik/china-weltmacht-diktatur-wirtschaft-europa-feuer-des-drachen-thomas-reichart
The response also didn't say that China doesn't have any innovations of its own. Only that they simply copy the innovations made in other countries. It also never said that they don't have patent rights or don't use patent rights themselves. They just don't respect them when it comes to international companies from other countries.
And that's simply a fact. I currently work for a Dutch company that also has factories in China, but all departments related to innovation are located in the Netherlands, not in China. For precisely this reason.
Interessanter Aspekt!
In the 80s, I and everyone else wouldn't have bought anything for even 10 euros!
Not yet – but we know what happens when we become dependent.
In the 1970s, the oil of the OPEG countries
In 2022, Gazprom gas
I think we ALL underestimate the adaptability of the Chinese, they still need some of our technology – if not more, then what – like at the moment only actionism without a plan B?
"They still need some of our technology"
No, you don't need that anymore, a new report from Capital.de 3 days ago:
Technologically, China has overtaken:
China is no longer just a country of copycats. It is already a global leader in e-mobility, wind power, and solar energy. Whether you like it or not, the music is now playing in China. German car manufacturers, for example, are already playing catch-up and can no longer afford to be arrogant toward China.
German companies like VW, BMW, and Mercedes, as well as Siemens and BASF, must be active in the Chinese market and increasingly relocate their research and development to China. And that's exactly what they're doing right now. CARIAD, VW's software subsidiary, for example, just invested another €2.4 billion in a strategic cooperation and joint venture with Horizon Robotics, the Chinese market leader in autonomous driving.
We Germans shouldn't just look for things to criticize about China, even if we might be justified. We should also take a look at ourselves more often and be willing to learn from China. There's a great deal there. The pace at which innovations are being dared and new future industries are being created in China, for example, is phenomenal.
“55 percent of all electric vehicles are sold in China, and if Germany’s carmakers want to remain globally competitive, they need access not only to the country’s consumers but also to the technological expertise that has been developed there,” writes the Financial Times in a good analysis of the topic.
Nowhere are more wind turbines being erected and more solar power systems being installed than in China. I often think of a sentence the manager responsible for artificial intelligence at the Chinese internet giant Baidu once said to me in a Beijing café. "You in Europe are already regulating artificial intelligence to death before it even exists," he said. That's true. We in Germany could learn a thing or two from the Chinese's pro-business pragmatism, which even under Xi Jinping hasn't died.
Between kowtowing and war cries – the German China debate knows only extremes – Capital.de
"like at the moment only actionism without a plan B?"
A commission of experts annually assesses the progress of the EU and individual countries in the field of research.
This year's conclusion (2022): The West's greatest weakness is digital technologies. China, on the other hand, is very strong in this field. The risk of dependence is high.
According to experts, Germany and the EU are in danger of losing ground in digital technology and becoming too dependent on China.
EU is technologically weak: Experts fear digital dependence on China – n-tv.de
Maybe that's plan B?
Every cheap purchase you make in China strengthens a brutal regime that openly seeks world domination and views us as subhuman.
Every euro you transfer to China costs jobs and prosperity here. You're simply transferring our prosperity to China.
This is exactly what has happened over the last 30 years, turning China into a power that openly threatens the West and is hostile to us.