How do I measure a quantity at just one point?
As is well known, there is always a quantity between two present points, but I ask myself:
How can I measure the quantity of a single point in order to mathematically determine the quantity of two points, since a point has no quantity but at most a quality?
So is the following conclusion wrong that, based on this logic, both points must necessarily be present at the same time in order to understand the distance as a quantity?
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At the same time – it is not possible. Any exchange of information takes place.
The measurement or quantity is in principle the intensity of an action, for example the gravitative effect at any point in space.
Therefore, your argument is not correct, because a measurement can consist of two measuring sensors that are present at the same time. There is no exchange of information at all because the effect to be measured is present.
Spatial points must be different and present to act and time points must be identical or at the same time.
Both the points and the measuring sensors are spatially separated from one another. Thus, every change requires time, no place “white”, which makes the other “present”.
What is measurement Other than an information transmission two points?
In the case of a non-changing gravitation effect, the measured values are only “randomly” identical, but this cannot be reliably known at the measurement time.
Part 2: The object or the photon is thus the trigonometrically scaled marking of the paths which range from the origin of the coordinate to the outer edge of the sphere of action. Outside this range of action, there is no information that could cause something, because the effect is the addition of two spatial variables whose effective ranges currently overlap.
And remember: This marking is the size that we also want to understand as gravitation, it should be known that it is the only size that can be shielded from nothing in this world.
The sum of the addition thus represents us as an intensity of the gravitational effect and that addition is the only effect at all, with the speed having no relevance, because it doesn’t matter, it always only takes a constant length forward, just as the temporal dimension changes its value.
Contrary to any doctrine, each change is ultimately a Planckian length and is unidirectional, so there is no difference between the spatial or temporal directivity. The typical spatial bidirectional behavior is only determined by the effect on the actual spatial-gravitative-topological structural nature of the current space.
The other objects mentioned by you therefore have no relevance for the ongoing behavior of an object, but those form only the generally gravitational-topological landscape in which the whole is executed.
In this way, however, there is still no timeless present, because the change can only be caused by an external effect. And that would only be understood if the present spatial structure does not change at all, that is to say the present is eternal and all constellations arbitrarily remain in space without movement.
If the extreme perspective of an observer changes, which we can only grasp as a time, then the overlaps of the objects would also change, so that the objects do not change, but the sum of the superimposed effects and thus reveal completely different intensities that we then see as moving objects.
So, it’s the theory of relativity in pure culture. Every actual external change along a fifth dimension is understood as a movement from the inside, without only the smallest spark having to be attempted to make the inner four-dimensional structure look completely different, which can be detected at any time as a change in the gravitational intensity, but we never classify as a purely spatial size, although the law of distance has always revealed an unmistakable relationship to distance.
Oh, damn it, it’s gonna be a long example.
Therefore, I have to split the comment into two posts.
Part 1:
Your desired example is described as a thing that causes nothing but a change in the spatial structure. It is therefore not a thing that displaces the space and its substance then requires a separate explanation, but the thing or the object is the marking of the space itself.
Each of the three spatial dimensions known to us crumbles into a fourth and thus comes to the geometrical relationship, which we call a law of distance and describe with 1/r2. We also call this simple physical object a photon.
Although the structure is a four-dimensional curvature, of which we only grasp three dimensions, because we have not yet known how to perceive the fourth, except that we determine the change in the current state and at whose difference to the previous state record the distances of a fourth dimension.
However, such a measurement or Determining a fatal hook, because the universe has no memory like man, but it can only act on what is currently present. Thus, it does not really reveal itself over time, but we can only refer to the past spatial position, and that is in our memory as a memory that is truly spatially never present.
And that memory or Storage of states, those we call information that we use as chronologically stored mental size for mathematical operations. For this reason alone, we use a temporal variable that represents a pure substitute for a movement that leads along a spatial path.
However, that conception of a replacement path is linear, but the distances in the vicinity of a photon are different, because curved and in the case of linear changes in the coordinates, this results in severe differences between the scaling of a gravitatively affected environment and the uncurved environment, which we ultimately want to understand as a time dilation.
In order to identify the process of a spatial change, the spatial and temporal changes of the coordinates are decisive. The current state of the space is characterized as the present. In order to be able to determine a change, it is necessary to change all the coordinates involved, because if only a single coordinate does not change, then no time or time will pass for that coordinate. there is no effect.
This would mean that it would not be guaranteed that an effect would spread isotropically. But we know that an effect is absolutely isotropic, and therefore it is also assumed that absolutely every coordinate changes, which we ultimately understand as a movement.
The only existing information that exists is therefore the space and its randomly distributed structural markings, which we now consider as photons. The structures are characterized in particular by precisely defined 1/r2 intervals.
This means that the radius of action does not relate to a temporal variable, but to a spatial distance within which it can act at all. The known speed of information (speed of light) is therefore not relevant to the measurement, since the intensity of the gravitational effect is statically present and never changes.
Only by changing the spatial coordinates is the passing of the time characteristic, but this is in any case a linear change, thus no circular function follows. Whereas spatial distance changes can never be linear, because the isotropic behavior of the action necessarily determines a spatially trigonometric relationship.
Sure, that’s it. But: Does gravitation not in principle affect a change? At least when masses hang freely? And then any resulting photons are finally the “connection” to the measuring device, what else?
During a measurement which takes place not only at a “time point”, e.g. the position of the measurement object, as long as it is not otherwise “fixed”.
This is logical, just because measurements are always based on comparison, on differences. In this respect, the quantity results from the difference between at least two measurements, or in the case of only one measurement with an “internal” comparison with a “measurement rod”.
But distances can only be measured by photons, what else? Even with direct contact, electron paths are still touching, which is also an electromagnetic matter. And all electromagnetic in principle includes delay, even with direct contact.
That is why I have a problem of principle with the “timeless present” you mentioned, which cannot in principle exist in our perception. Tiny differences may be neglected, but they do not do so. “Timeless Presence” would be a pure speculation or a bill, with all the related problems.
Maybe you can imagine what you mean by a concrete example?
Au weia, the indirect comparison with the photons was a bad comparison, because you connect it with the temporal course of an effect we call movement. But an acting presence is motionless and limited to the inversely proportional square of distance.
This means that the radius of action does not relate to a temporal variable, but to a spatial distance within which it can act at all. The known speed of information (speed of light) is therefore not relevant to the measurement, since the intensity of the gravitational effect is statically present and never changes.
However, since changes occur only in movements, it is not relevant in the present, because only the current state of the gravitational intensity is measured or, respectively, only the instantaneous state of one of the changes at the measuring sensor is detected in the steady state.
Thus, if other effects are present within the radius of action, they are naturally recorded as the sum of all current variables. The more or less reasonable evaluation of the measured values is not the subject of my question. The first measurement and that intensity would only be a quantity if the location of the 2. It is possible to establish a plausible basis.
Apart from this, only the second point describes the direction and thus also the pulse, if therefore intensity and distance to the 2. Point is known. What can ultimately be determined by the future movement.
Absolutely impossible! We see Andromeda as it looked a few billion years ago, and I see the monitor as he looked a few ago we looked pico seconds! This is completely irrelevant in practice. But it is still not exactly present. It’s time for a physicist to take a look.
If you look at the present as a “real” time, that’s true. But every perception must be a sequence of times, only for reasons written above.
Can you define it more precisely?
Well, that all things you see are also present, that is probably out of question, and that there is no change in the present is certainly also possible. So everything you see is always present at the same time, because it is present or present in the timeless present.
😉 Okay, but here I like to know how you are at present not only to accept, but to establish without doubt.
No, I don’t. Just because we assign a special status to a measuring instrument, the “rest” of the universe, together with all natural laws, does not care about it.
I admit that everything was not my question, because the physicists trade fairs and I do not think it is relevant to deal with the things mentioned, because in the end a concrete statement on the measured is made.
And the question is addressed to the 2nd measuring point. The rest is vocabulary.
That’s wrong, not meant. Rather, there is no absolutely accurate measurement to measure the art is to construct the measuring instruments in such a way that they influence the measuring object as little as possible. But the influence can never be reduced to zero. “Unebstimmable” is nonsense, “Inaccurate” (theoretically) is correct. The fact that this often plays no role in practice does not mean that this inevitable inaccuracy or Falsification does not exist.
Also call me only one measurement method, a measuring device that does not have any influence on the measurement object, be it so small! I’m curious.
There must always be at least two points, be it that the second point is “only” the measuring device. This is the result of the above written by me.
And if you measure two measurement objects, you have at least 3 points that are related to each other, with two measuring instruments even 4.
In practice, the measuring device is not perceived in such a way, unless it is so bad that the resulting deviations are unacceptable for practical calculations, etc.
Well, after more than 50 years with measuring technology, I know many types of measurements and also their theoretical problems, but I did not ask how to master them, but it is measured the existing effect on the known state of the measuring device sensor.
After what you say, any measurement would be unnecessary because it is inconsistent. And especially is not measured as stupid as you want to understand.
Again. Where’s the second point?
Because, as you have already mentioned, the first point is always the other point or the point of the measuring sensor.
But changes in the measured values are not! Gravi waves also have finite propagation time!
The meter is always the other point! Why do you always take the measuring instrument out of consideration?
Measurements are always interactions, each measuring instrument has an influence on the object to be measured. This is really nothing new in all areas of physics.
There is no massless measuring instrument, its Gravi. -Activation also affects the object to be measured. I don’t think so. If you let that out, okay, but that’s why it’s not gone, not ineffective.
Right!
But it is not a time interval, but a spatial, and a reciprocal exchange of information or a temporal influence is your idea that has no relevance to the question.
Because the spatial points already exist and the effects are therefore always present. Whenever I measure, I can experience the present gravitative state of the respective point.
The really incomprehensible is the question of the second point. Because an effect always exists between two points. So where is the 2nd point, of the quantity we understand as intensity of gravity when we measure only one point?
No time will pass during the measurement
Every measurement takes time, how should it go differently? And the path of information from the point to be measured to the measuring device” also takes. Why do you leave this “dark” from the observations?
But none of the measured values is exactly the current one, but always the one before my picose customers. No measuring device receives instantaneous values.
If the points are separated from each other, it is not relevant for the respective other point in which state the other point is located. Because all measurements take place at an identical time and the current intensity of the effect can be detected.
During the measurement, no time will pass or during the present nothing changes.